Debate

ACTIVITY: At the beginning of class, have each student write what justice means, Collect these answers for a participation grade
• Quick Explanation of the excerpt:
  – This is the first debate held in the book regarding justice and the rest of the book also addresses what justice is and what its uses are.
    — This is written by Plato, a student of Aristotle about an occurrence, which happened to Aristotle.
    — Be sure to see how Aristotle uses reason to rebut an answer that is given by those in the discussion and what the use of examples to illustrate his point or the fault in the answer he received.
•In class, read the excerpt from Plato’s Republic having students switch readers so each student has the opportunity to read aloud in class.
•When finished with the reading, read thought what the class thought was justice, not mentioning names and see what the class thinks of each of those answers
• Ask if there are any questions up to this point and give the students a bit of time to formulate a question
• If no questions begin with asking ask: WHAT WAS THE MEANING OF JUSTICE ACCORDING TO CEPHALUS? When answered ask if that is correct and begin to look into why or why not this is correct.
• Follow the above method through the entirety of the excerpt.

Day Two
Discussion on justice and Plato’s Republic and introduction to counter argument
• Ask for questions on yesterday’s discussion and finish up any unfinished business from yesterday’s class period.
• When discussion has slowed, tell the students what each of the other members of the discussion said in their section of the argument and talk about what each of those views on justice could mean and what the opposite could mean.
  Cephalus. Justice as Honesty in Word and Deed (327a-331d)
  Polemarchus. Justice as Helping Friends and Harming Enemies (331e-336a)
  Thrasymachus. Justice as the Interest of the Stronger (336b-347e)
  Thrasymachus. Is Injustice More Profitable than Justice? (347e-354c)
• QUESTION: Why is it so important to see all of the varying views on justice? How can knowing these views help Plato to lead the reader to the real meaning of justice? Discuss.
LECTURE NOTES:
• When giving a speech it is to have a question and answer session at the conclusion of the speech, it is important to have addressed the comments and questions that could be addressed. These counter arguments should be addressed after concluding the argument that is for the topic and before the conclusion of the speech.
• Be concise in your speech. Let the audience know where it is that you stand on the subject by using evidence that supports your opinion
• Present information that could be contrary to what you are arguing for and then be sure to explain why it is that you did not take this contrary information to heart forming your opinion
• When asking for questions, before hand preparation is imperative. Knowing what could be asked and the weaknesses of a speech allows for the presenter to be prepared to answer questions coherently and so the answer conforms to the speech they have just presented

Day Three
• GROUP ACTIVITY:
  – Divide the students into groups of three
  – Give each group one of the following statements
    o Justice is honesty in word and deed
    o Justice is not honesty in word and deed
    o Justice is helping a friend and harming an enemy
    o Justice is not helping a friend and harming an enemy
    o Justice is the interest of the stronger
    o Justice is not the interest of the stronger
    o Injustice is more profitable than justice
    o Justice is more profitable than injustice
  – Have each group work on the argument for their assigned sentence and predict the evidence that will be used against them in order to have an answer prepared for a rebuttal
  – Students may have the remainder of the day to work in their group to develop their argument, address all possible counter arguments, and to prepare themselves as a board, which will debate with the converse of their argument. Each student will be required to present some part of the argument and therefore each student will have their own manuscript that will be collected at the end of the presentation and will be graded as well.
  – Students will be encouraged to be creative and to ask questions if needed

Day Four
Present Group Activities in panel form
  • Students present in a speech their side of the argument
  • The counter side presents
  • The two groups have a 7-10 minute debate using the counter arguments and flaws they have found in the other group’s logic
  • This aspect will count for 50% of the test grade and the students are not to be graded on their ability to debate specifically, but how well they seemed prepared to answer the questions and how well the got their points across
  • Must hand in their manuscript at the end of their speech for a grade

See attached grading sheet for presentation.

Day Five
Test on Plato’s Republic, counter arguments, and their importance.

Plato’s Republic (Excerpt)
Translated by Jowett
I will tell you, Socrates, he said, what my own feeling is. [329a] Men of my age flock together; we are birds of a feather, as the old proverb says; and at our meetings the tale of my acquaintance commonly is — I cannot eat, I cannot drink; the pleasures of youth and love are fled away: there was a good time once, but now that is gone, and life is no longer life. Some [329b] complain of the slights which are put upon them by relations, and they will tell you sadly of how many evils their old age is the cause. But to me, Socrates, these complainers seem to blame that which is not really in fault. For if old age were the cause, I too being old, and every other old man, would have felt as they do. But this is not my own experience, nor that of others whom I have known. How well I remember the aged poet Sophocles, when in answer to the question, [329c] How does love suit with age, Sophocles, — are you still the man you were? Peace, he replied; most gladly have I escaped the thing of which you speak; I feel as if I had escaped from a mad and furious master. His words have often occurred to my mind since, and they seem as good to me now as at the time when he uttered them. For certainly old age has a great sense of calm and freedom; when the passions relax their hold, then, as Sophocles says, [329d] we are freed from the grasp not of one mad master only, but of many. The truth is, Socrates, that these regrets, and also the complaints about relations, are to be attributed to the same cause, which is not old age, but men’s characters and tempers; for he who is of a calm and happy nature will hardly feel the pressure of age, but to him who is of an opposite disposition youth and age are equally a burden.
I listened in admiration, and wanting to draw him out, that he might go on — Yes, Cephalus, I said; [329e] but I rather suspect that people in general are not convinced by you when you speak thus; they think that old age sits lightly upon you, not because of your happy disposition, but because you are rich, and wealth is well known to be a great comforter.
You are right, he replied; they are not convinced: and there is something in what they say; not, however, so much as they imagine. I might answer them as Themistocles answered the Seriphian who was abusing him and saying that he was famous, not for his own merits [330a] but because he was an Athenian: “If you had been a native of my country or I of yours, neither of us would have been famous.” And to those who are not rich and are impatient of old age, the same reply may be made; for to the good poor man old age cannot be a light burden, nor can a bad rich man ever have peace with himself.
May I ask, Cephalus, whether your fortune was for the most part inherited or acquired by you?
Acquired! Socrates; do you want to know how much I acquired? [330b] In the art of making money I have been midway between my father and grandfather: for my grandfather, whose name I bear, doubled and trebled the value of his patrimony, that which he inherited being much what I possess now; but my father Lysanias reduced the property below what it is at present: and I shall be satisfied if I leave to these my sons not less but a little more than I received.
That was why I asked you the question, I replied, because I see that you are indifferent about money, [330c] which is a characteristic rather of those who have inherited their fortunes than of those who have acquired them; the makers of fortunes have a second love of money as a creation of their own, resembling the affection of authors for their own poems, or of parents for their children, besides that natural love of it for the sake of use and profit which is common to them and all men. And hence they are very bad company, for they can talk about nothing but the praises of wealth.
[330d]
That is true, he said.
Yes, that is very true, but may I ask another question? — What do you consider to be the greatest blessing which you have reaped from your wealth?
One, he said, of which I could not expect easily to convince others. For let me tell you, Socrates, that when a man thinks himself to be near death, fears and cares enter into his mind which he never had before; the tales of a world below and the punishment which is exacted there of deeds done here were once a laughing matter to him, [330e] but now he is tormented with the thought that they may be true: either from the weakness of age, or because he is now drawing nearer to that other place, he has a clearer view of these things; suspicions and alarms crowd thickly upon him, and he begins to reflect and consider what wrongs he has done to others. And when he finds that the sum of his transgressions is great he will many a time like a child start up in his sleep for fear, and he is filled with dark forebodings. But to him who is conscious of no sin, [331a] sweet hope, as Pindar charmingly says, is the kind nurse of his age:
“Hope,” he says, “cherishes the soul of him who lives in justice and holiness, and is the nurse of his age and the companion of his journey; — hope which is mightiest to sway the restless soul of man.”
How admirable are his words! And the great blessing of riches, I [331b] do not say to every man, but to a good man, is, that he has had no occasion to deceive or to defraud others, either intentionally or unintentionally; and when he departs to the world below he is not in any apprehension about offerings due to the gods or debts which he owes to men. Now to this peace of mind the possession of wealth greatly contributes; and therefore I say, that, setting one thing against another, of the many advantages which wealth has to give, to a man of sense this is in my opinion the greatest.
Well said, Cephalus, [331c] I replied; but as concerning justice, what is it? — to speak the truth and to pay your debts — no more than this? And even to this are there not exceptions? Suppose that a friend when in his right mind has deposited arms with me and he asks for them when he is not in his right mind, ought I to give them back to him? No one would say that I ought or that I should be right in doing so, any more than they would say that I ought always to speak the truth [331d] to one who is in his condition.
You are quite right, he replied.
But then, I said, speaking the truth and paying your debts is not a correct definition of justice.
Quite correct, Socrates, if Simonides is to be believed, said Polemarchus interposing.
I fear, said Cephalus, that I must go now, for I have to look after the sacrifices, and I hand over the argument to Polemarchus and the company.
Is not Polemarchus your heir? I said.
To be sure, he answered, and went away laughing to the sacrifices.
Tell me then, O thou heir of the argument, what did Simonides say, and according to you truly say, about justice?
He said that the repayment of a debt is just, and in saying so he appears to me to be right.
I should be sorry to doubt the word of such a wise and inspired man, but his meaning, though probably clear to you, is the reverse of clear to me. For he certainly does not mean, as we were just now saying, that I ought to return a deposit of arms or of anything else to one who asks for it when he is not in his right senses; and yet a deposit [332a] cannot be denied to be a debt.
True.
Then when the person who asks me is not in his right mind I am by no means to make the return?
Certainly not.
When Simonides said that the repayment of a debt was justice, he did not mean to include that case?
Certainly not; for he thinks that a friend ought always to do good to a friend and never evil.
You mean that the return of a deposit of gold [332b] which is to the injury of the receiver, if the two parties are friends, is not the repayment of a debt, — that is what you would imagine him to say?
Yes.
And are enemies also to receive what we owe to them?
To be sure, he said, they are to receive what we owe them, and an enemy, as I take it, owes to an enemy that which is due or proper to him — that is to say, evil.
Simonides, then, after the manner of poets, would seem to have spoken darkly of the nature of justice; [332c] for he really meant to say that justice is the giving to each man what is proper to him, and this he termed a debt.
That must have been his meaning, he said.
By heaven! I replied; and if we asked him what due or proper thing is given by medicine, and to whom, what answer do you think that he would make to us?
He would surely reply that medicine gives drugs and meat and drink to human bodies.
And what due or proper thing is given by cookery, and to what?
[332d]
Seasoning to food.
And what is that which justice gives, and to whom?
If, Socrates, we are to be guided at all by the analogy of the preceding instances, then justice is the art which gives good to friends and evil to enemies.
That is his meaning then?
I think so.
And who is best able to do good to his friends and evil to his enemies in time of sickness?
The physician.
[332e]
Or when they are on a voyage, amid the perils of the sea?
The pilot.
And in what sort of actions or with a view to what result is the just man most able to do harm to his enemy and good to his friends?
In going to war against the one and in making alliances with the other.
But when a man is well, my dear Polemarchus, there is no need of a physician?
No.
And he who is not on a voyage has no need of a pilot?
No.
Then in time of peace justice will be of no use?
I am very far from thinking so.
You think that justice may be of use in peace as well as in war?
[333a]
Yes.
Like husbandry for the acquisition of corn?
Yes.
Or like shoemaking for the acquisition of shoes, — that is what you mean?
Yes.
And what similar use or power of acquisition has justice in time of peace?
In contracts, Socrates, justice is of use.
And by contracts you mean partnerships?
Exactly.
But is the just man [333b] or the skillful player a more useful and better partner at a game of draughts?
The skillful player.
And in the laying of bricks and stones is the just man a more useful or better partner than the builder?
Quite the reverse.
Then in what sort of partnership is the just man a better partner than the harp-player, as in playing the harp the harp-player is certainly a better partner than the just man?
In a money partnership.
Yes, Polemarchus, but surely not in the use of money; for you do not want a just man to be your counsellor in the purchase [333c] or sale of a horse; a man who is knowing about horses would be better for that, would he not?
Certainly.
And when you want to buy a ship, the shipwright or the pilot would be better?
True.
Then what is that joint use of silver or gold in which the just man is to be preferred?
When you want a deposit to be kept safely.
You mean when money is not wanted, but allowed to lie?
Precisely.
That is to say, justice is useful when money is useless?
[333d]
That is the inference.
And when you want to keep a pruning-hook safe, then justice is useful to the individual and to the state; but when you want to use it, then the art of the vine-dresser?
Clearly.
And when you want to keep a shield or a lyre, and not to use them, you would say that justice is useful; but when you want to use them, then the art of the soldier or of the musician?
Certainly.
And so of all the other things; — justice is useful when they are useless, and useless when they are useful?
That is the inference.
[333e]
Then justice is not good for much. But let us consider this further point: Is not he who can best strike a blow in a boxing match or in any kind of fighting best able to ward off a blow?
Certainly.
And he who is most skillful in preventing or escaping from a disease is best able to create one?
True.
And [334a] he is the best guard of a camp who is best able to steal a march upon the enemy?
Certainly.
Then he who is a good keeper of anything is also a good thief?
That, I suppose, is to be inferred.
Then if the just man is good at keeping money, he is good at stealing it.
That is implied in the argument.
Then after all the just man has turned out to be a thief. And this is a lesson which I suspect you must have learnt out of Homer; for he, speaking of Autolycus, [334b] the maternal grandfather of Odysseus, who is a favourite of his, affirms that
“He was excellent above all men in theft and perjury.”
And so, you and Homer and Simonides are agreed that justice is an art of theft; to be practiced however “for the good of friends and for the harm of enemies,” — that was what you were saying?
No, certainly not that, though I do not now know what I did say; but I still stand by the latter words.
[334c]
Well, there is another question: By friends and enemies do we mean those who are so really, or only in seeming?
Surely, he said, a man may be expected to love those whom he thinks good, and to hate those whom he thinks evil.
Yes, but do not persons often err about good and evil: many who are not good seem to be so, and conversely?
That is true.
Then to them the good will be enemies and the evil will be their friends?
True.
And in that case they will be right in doing good to the evil [334d] and evil to the good?
Clearly.
But the good are just and would not do an injustice?
True.
Then according to your argument it is just to injure those who do no wrong?
Nay, Socrates; the doctrine is immoral.
Then I suppose that we ought to do good to the just and harm to the unjust?
I like that better.
But see the consequence: — Many a man who is ignorant of human nature has friends who are bad friends, [334e] and in that case he ought to do harm to them; and he has good enemies whom he ought to benefit; but, if so, we shall be saying the very opposite of that which we affirmed to be the meaning of Simonides.
Very true, he said: and I think that we had better correct an error into which we seem to have fallen in the use of the words “friend” and “enemy.”
What was the error, Polemarchus? I asked.
We assumed that he is a friend who seems to be or who is thought good.
And how is the error to be corrected?
We should rather say that he is a friend who is, as well as seems, good; and that he who seems only, [335a] and is not good, only seems to be and is not a friend; and of an enemy the same may be said.
You would argue that the good are our friends and the bad our enemies?
Yes.
And instead of saying simply as we did at first, that it is just to do good to our friends and harm to our enemies, we should further say: It is just to do good to our friends when they are good and harm to our enemies when they are evil?
[335b]
Yes, that appears to me to be the truth.
But ought the just to injure any one at all?
Undoubtedly he ought to injure those who are both wicked and his enemies.
When horses are injured, are they improved or deteriorated?
The latter.
Deteriorated, that is to say, in the good qualities of horses, not of dogs?
Yes, of horses.
And dogs are deteriorated in the good qualities of dogs, and not of horses?
Of course.
[335c]
And will not men who are injured be deteriorated in that which is the proper virtue of man?
Certainly.
And that human virtue is justice?
To be sure.
Then men who are injured are of necessity made unjust?
That is the result.
But can the musician by his art make men unmusical?
Certainly not.
Or the horseman by his art make them bad horsemen?
Impossible.
And can the just by justice make men unjust, [335d] or speaking generally, can the good by virtue make them bad?
Assuredly not.
Any more than heat can produce cold?
It cannot.
Or drought moisture?
Clearly not.
Nor can the good harm any one?
Impossible.
And the just is the good?
Certainly.
Then to injure a friend or any one else is not the act of a just man, but of the opposite, who is the unjust?
I think that what you say is quite true, [335e] Socrates.
Then if a man says that justice consists in the repayment of debts, and that good is the debt which a man owes to his friends, and evil the debt which he owes to his enemies, — to say this is not wise; for it is not true, if, as has been clearly shown, the injuring of another can be in no case just.
I agree with you, said Polemarchus.
Then you and I are prepared to take up arms against any one who attributes such a saying to Simonides or Bias or Pittacus, or any other wise man or seer?
I am quite ready to do battle at your side, he said.
[336a]
Shall I tell you whose I believe the saying to be?
Whose?
I believe that Periander or Perdiccas or Xerxes or Ismenias the Theban, or some other rich and mighty man, who had a great opinion of his own power, was the first to say that justice is “doing good to your friends and harm to your enemies.”
Most true, he said.
Yes, I said; but if this definition of justice also breaks down, what other can be offered?
Several times in the course of the discussion Thrasymachus had made an attempt to get the argument into his own hands, and had been put down by the rest of the company, who wanted to hear the end. But when Polemarchus and I had done speaking and there was a pause, he could no longer hold his peace; and, gathering himself up, he came at us like a wild beast, seeking to devour us. We were quite panic-stricken at the sight of him.
He roared out to the whole company: [336c] What folly, Socrates, has taken possession of you all? And why, sillybillies, do you knock under to one another? I say that if you want really to know what justice is, you should not only ask but answer, and you should not seek honour to yourself from the refutation of an opponent, but have your own answer; for there is many a one who can ask and cannot answer. [336d] And now I will not have you say that justice is duty or advantage or profit or gain or interest, for this sort of nonsense will not do for me; I must have clearness and accuracy.
I was panic-stricken at his words, and could not look at him without trembling. Indeed I believe that if I had not fixed my eye upon him, I should have been struck dumb: but when I saw his fury rising, [336e] I looked at him first, and was therefore able to reply to him.
Thrasymachus, I said, with a quiver, don’t be hard upon us. Polemarchus and I may have been guilty of a little mistake in the argument, but I can assure you that the error was not intentional. If we were seeking for a piece of gold, you would not imagine that we were “knocking under to one another,” and so losing our chance of finding it. And why, when we are seeking for justice, a thing more precious than many pieces of gold, do you say that we are weakly yielding to one another and not doing our utmost to get at the truth? Nay, my good friend, we are most willing and anxious to do so, but the fact is that we cannot. And if so, you people who know all things should pity us [337a] and not be angry with us.

Grading Sheet for Presentation and Manuscript on Counter Arguments

Group Members:_______________________________________

Yes or No
________. Each student spoke in the presentation (10 pt)
________. The group presentation was 5-7 minutes in length (5 pt)
________. The presentation was given on the day assigned (10 pt)

Group’s topic:

The argument for their topic in presentation: (25 pt)

Counter arguments and how well addressed in presentation: (25 pt)

Response to the questions and arguments posed by the opposing group: (25 pt)

Test on Plato’s Republic and Counter Arguments
Name: ___________________

Directions: Circle the best answer.
1.What was Cephalus’ take on the meaning of justice?
a. Justice as the interest of the stronger.
b. Justice as helping friends and harming enemies.
c. Justice is honesty in word and deed.
d. None of the above.
e. All of the above.

2. What was Thrasymachus’ take on the meaning of justice?
a. Justice as the interest of the stronger.
b. Justice as helping friends and harming enemies.
c. Justice is honesty in word and deed.
d. None of the above.
e. All of the above.

3. What was Polemarchus’ take on the meaning of justice?
a. Justice as the interest of the stronger.
b. Justice as helping friends and harming enemies.
c. Justice is honesty in word and deed.
d. None of the above.
e. All of the above.

4. Why is it important to consider possible counter arguments when giving a speech?
a. To show that you have completely researched both sides of the topic.
b. To gain credibility as a speaker.
c. To be prepared for any questions that may follow the speech.
d. None of the above.
e. All of the above.

5. Who was the narrator in the book Republic?
a. Socrates.
b. Plato.
c. Aristotle.
d. None of the above.
e. All of the above.

6. How did the narrator point out that the argument in question was perhaps incorrect?
a. He gave an example tat proved the opposite of the argument at hand.
b. He told the listeners that the answer was incorrect.
c. He said that there is no right or wrong.
d. None of the above.
e. All of the above.

7. Where in a speech should the counter arguments be presented?
a. After the introduction.
b. In the middle of the body.
c. Before the presentation of the argument supporting the affirmative.
d. After presentation of the argument supporting the affirmative.
e. None of the above.

8. T or F It is important to be vague in your speech so the audience is unsure as to what you think.
9. T or F Counter arguments are only important when debating.
10. T or F The narrator has all of the answers and is imparting them on to the listeners.

Essay : What is justice? Answer and explain.

Answers
1. C
2. A
3. B
4. E
5. C
6. A
7. D
8. F
9. F
10. F

Christine Olsen
Fall 2003